Audio but no Picture.

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  • #24755
    Ryihn
    Participant

    Good day everyone. First & foremost, I read the sticky and other threads with similar problems but didn’t find any solution.
    Today I recieved my Ossc and I can’t seem to figure out why both of my Tv’s get audio but no visuals:
    1: 4K Sony KD 65 XF9005 100Hz Panel – Input lag ca. 25 ms (if that’s helpful)
    2: HDTV Telefunken D40F127R3C 50Hz Panel – Input lag not known.
    To clarify: I actually only want to play on the Sony. The older tv serves for testing right now and will soon be removed. However, I can play all the old consoles on the old Telefunken without any devices but as everyone knows, it looks like crap. I don’t know for sure if the Sony supports 50Hz btw.

    All my consoles are unmodded Pal Europe and I only use original Nintendo/Sony Scart cables. The Ossc goes directly into the Tv. No capture card/device, no switcher (yet). The Ossc gives me the grey test screen at the beginning, recieves signals and even glows green. It’s just the video that’s missing (blackscreen). I also tried different hdmi cables (completely new ones) and plugged them into all different hdmi slots. I tried N64 (S/N: NUP16826752), Gamecube (S/N: DEF10694087) and Wii (S/N: LEH10044888) but it’s always audio only, no visuals. I also tried testing all the different settings in output & compatibility but nothing changed.
    Current version is 0.81a

    Does anybody have any idea? I don’t want to fiddle too much with all the other options.
    Thanks so much in advance. https://imgur.com/tr7LuXC https://imgur.com/1Pu6PQy

    #24758
    SegaFanboy
    Participant

    Sound like you are using the included Composite to Scart Adapters. You need a real RGB Cable, or a Component Cable for the Wii.

    Also I’m sorry to disappoint you, but an unmodded N64 will not work, because it doesn’t support RGB. The Gamecube will look like sh** because it has 480i resolution.

    #24761
    BlueStinger
    Participant

    Oh yes, you’re out of luck, N64, Gamecube and Wii are some of the most expensive consoles when it comes to RGB/YPbPr.
    For the Gamecube and Wii (I assume they would be compatible with the Wii), your best option seems to wait for this : https://www.retrorgb.com/insurrection-industries-announces-sub-100-gamecube-component-cable.html
    The price is steep, but if you look online how much cost official YPbPr cables for the gamecube, you will see those $100 as a bargain.
    From what I’ve heard, the N64 RGB mod isn’t the most complicated or at least the most expensive mod out there, but you’d still have to spend, at least, an additional £20 for a cable (https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/nintendo/n64).

    You did things in a wrong order I’m afraid, usually people get the cables and then the OSSC (or Frameister or whatever).

    You are not informed enough, no offense, you can’t blame someone for not knowing that he doesn’t know something. So I’m going to try to put you on the right tracks :

    This is a playlist of 37 videos, the first ones will teach you the basics (RGB, sync etc) and the next videos will talk about “each” console and get into the specifics. Don’t worry, you’ll love watching these ! I’ve watched some of them 5 times !

    In addition, you should read this site : https://www.retrorgb.com/rgbguide.html
    There is also a section where you can check each console :
    Wii : https://www.retrorgb.com/wii.html
    N64 : https://www.retrorgb.com/n64.html
    Gamecube : https://www.retrorgb.com/gamecube.html

    The SCART cables that you’re using right now, they look like SCART RGB, but they are wired differently. Basically :
    Composite SCART : Red, green, blue, sync H, sync V and luma go through the same pin (so, through a single cable, it’s exactly like using a single Yellow RCA)
    SCART RGB : Red, green, blue are all on separate pins (so, on separate cables).

    That’s the easy version, it gets more complicated but it’s not out of reach. The sync is the most complicated thing when you start, watch the first 2 or 3 MyLifeInGaming videos up to when they explain the sync. Then you can use this homemade chart below to help you with your future purchases :

    Left : name of the sync signal
    right : details of the sync signal

    for instance, “Y+C+s” means that all of these things are in the SAME cable,
    “R/G/B/s” means that all these things are in SEPARATE cables
    so “+” means “combined into the same cable/pin”
    and “/” means “separated from the rest”
    Ideally, each thing should have its own cable, so have as many “/” as possible.

    Y = Luma (black and white, luminosity)
    C = chroma (chroma means R,G and B are combined)
    R,G,B = Red, green and Blue
    s = sync (“s” alone means that sH and sV are combined)
    sH = horizontal sync
    sV = vertical sync

    SYNC
    ——————————————-
    RF______________________Y+C+s (+audL+audR)_<- you don’t want that
    Composite_______________Y+C+s______________<- that’s what you have
    Y/C_____________________Y+s/C
    RGsB (sync-on-luma)_____R/G/B/Y+s
    RGBs (C-Sync)___________R/G/B/sH+sV
    RGBHV___________________R/G/B/C/sH/sV
    YPbPr___________________Y+s/Pb/Pr
    ——————————————-

    All those sync signals are basically ordered from the worst to the best. Ideally, you want anything below Y/C (S-Video).

    #24762
    Ryihn
    Participant

    Alright, I see – well first off: Thank you very much for your time, detailed explanation & links! I usually inform myself really well but I got talked into buying the ossc way to soon, which was not a complete mistake but as you said: Just the wrong order of starting things. Anyways, thanks to your input, I now understand why my current setup fails. At the same time it’s devestating to see that cables like that can go up to 100 bucks- that’s insane. I definitely wait for insurrections version. I’m really out of luck as it seems but now I know what I need to do to complete this project. Also: I don’t need pixelperfect quality. I would be happy enough, if I could play on the big screen again even if it’s just “acceptable quality”.

    Just one more question: I couldn’t find any tests or reviews on the topic if you can use the Hydra 2 with an Ossc. Thanks again for helping!

    #24768
    paulb_nl
    Participant

    Your PAL Gamecube supports RGB through SCART so you can use a Retrogamingcables Gamecube RGB SCART cable. It is best to buy one without sync stripper. Even if you buy component cables for your Gamecube then your PAL games won’t support 480p.

    For the Wii you should buy a component cable so you can enjoy 480p. Luckily those are not so expensive.

    #24770
    BlueStinger
    Participant

    If you want your consoles to look good on a big screen, you’ll need good cables to begin with. It will be tempting to sell your OSSC to buy those cables but as soon as you’ll get them, you will want to get an OSSC. My advice : don’t sell your OSSC, you will regret it.
    And if like paulb_nl said, your Gamecube accepts RGB from the get go, then buy yourself a SCART cable so you get to enjoy at least one of your console with RGB and the OSSC. (I don’t play Nintendo consoles even though I’m French, I lost track of which console can output RGB without modification)

    And if you can, plug the SCART directly in the TV, see how it looks and then use the OSSC and you’ll see that the OSSC makes a big difference and it should convince you to keep it.

    RetroGamingCable_UK sells 3 cables for the NGC right now :
    CSYNC : slightly better than the other one (mostly for PVM/BVM users) : £21.59 + shipping
    Sync-on-luma (RGsB) : very good and the cheapest : £17.99 + shipping
    PAKAPUNCH (CSYNC) : the best choice, fully shielded, important if you want to use a SCART switcher : £27.59 = shipping

    Don’t be afraid to buy the cheap one, the difference between RGsB and CSYNC is honestly barely noticeable (especially since you don’t want the best of the best).

    as a reminder
    RGsB : R,G and B have their own wire, the sync signal is combined on a separate wire (sH+sV)
    CSYNC : same as above but the sync signal is separated (H & V) and both have their own cable
    Fully shielded : this one is CSYNC and each wire is individually shielded, so less video noise due to magnetic interference (useful when using SCART switcher(s))

    My advice :
    either the cheap one if you don’t plan on buying a SCART switcher. The PACKAPUNCH one if you do want to use a switcher.

    #24777
    nmalinoski
    Participant

    Sync-on-luma (RGsB) : very good and the cheapest : £17.99 + shipping

    RGsB : R,G and B have their own wire, the sync signal is combined on a separate wire (sH+sV)

    Correction: RGsB is sync-on-green, where composite sync is muxed to Green; and RGBS has composite sync on a separate wire.

    Additionally, the composite sync signal provided by consoles for RGBS is typically composite video, which carries composite sync by design. Luma also carries composite sync by design, and is sometimes preferred over composite video by retro gamers because it causes significantly less interference to the R, G, and B signals compared to composite video.

    Clean composite sync should be the most preferred, but it’s really only required when using your consoles with professional video gear, like Extron’s RGB interfaces, and it’s extremely rare to get clean CSync from a console without a hardware modification; often aftermarket/boutique cables that offer clean CSync output use a sync stripper to remove video data from composite video or luma, and those sync strippers can sometimes cause compatibility issues with other devices, like the gscartsw when its sync-regeneration is enabled.

    #24780
    SegaFanboy
    Participant

    The Hydra will work on the OSSC. But you should really consider if you need it and if it makes sense in your setup. You named three consoles:

    1: The Wii needs a component cable to output the best possible resolution: 480p. These cables are common and cheap and if you look at your OSSC you will see that it has a component input – that means you can connect your Wii directly to the OSSC.

    2: The Pal Gamecube doesn’t support Component 480p, so you are stuck hat 480i via RGB-Scart. But your Wii can also play Gamecube Games. They will still play only in 480i, but you can save some bucks here. Of course I understand that you probably still want to use the Gamecube itself.

    3: N64 will not work.

    In this case you only need 2 inputs and both are on the OSSC itself.

    And again, I’m really sorry to disappoint you: The OSSC is a great devive, but it works best on Consoles with 2D-Content and 240p resolution, like the SNES or the Genesis. It will make the Wii look better, but even a RGB modded N64 with deblur won’t look good on your 65 inch TV. These early 3D-Consoles aren’t made for big screens. The same goes for the Gamecube, it has 480i output, which isn’t a problem on CRTs – but on the OSSC it will flicker and is just a blurry mess.

    #24783
    BuckoA51
    Keymaster

    2: The Pal Gamecube doesn’t support Component 480p

    That’s not true, the PAL cube supports 480p via component if you use imported software via Freeloader or some other means of running import games.

    #24789
    paulb_nl
    Participant

    RetroGamingCable_UK sells 3 cables for the NGC right now :
    CSYNC : slightly better than the other one (mostly for PVM/BVM users) : £21.59 + shipping
    Sync-on-luma (RGsB) : very good and the cheapest : £17.99 + shipping
    PAKAPUNCH (CSYNC) : the best choice, fully shielded, important if you want to use a SCART switcher : £27.59 = shipping

    You seem to be listing the NTSC SNES cables. PAL Gamecube does not output CSYNC or Luma.

    For Gamecube they only sell cables with composite video for sync or composite video+sync stripper. The latter should be avoided.

    #24792
    BlueStinger
    Participant

    @nmalinoski
    “RGsB is sync-on-green, where composite sync is mixed to Green” you seem to imply that Green is the cable that caries the color green, which would mean that luma is only on the green VIDEO COLOR line. Or that sync-on-green and sync-on-luma would be two separate things.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but sync-on-green means sync-on-luma and both mean RGsB, YPbPr is sync-on-green and the green cable only carries Luma. Same goes for Scart. A scart sync-on-luma (= sync-on-green = RGsB) is a scart where :
    1 pin carries Red
    1 pin carries Green
    1 pin carries Blue
    1 pin carries the sync signal on a separate line that is Luma (which would be used for luma if the scart were to be wired for S-video)
    and the composite line would be unused

    CSYNC (sync-on-composite) on a scart would be :
    1 pin carries Red
    1 pin carries Green
    1 pin carries Blue
    1 pin carries the sync signal on a separate line that is Composite (which would be used for a composite signal if the scart were to be used as a non-RGB scart)

    Did I got that wrong ?!

    Y from YPbPr = green cable = only luma (no color) = sync, but that’s a “happy accident”.
    What we call it “green” in that case is supposed to refer to the color coding of the wires but not the video signal, or did I get this wrong ?

    Because if I’m wrong (and I could be), this means that RGsB (sync-on-green) is not equal to sync-on-luma. In that case, are we supposed to use the term “sync-on-green” only when referring to YPbPr ? And sync-on-luma only when referring to scart or s-video ? Does that mean that the green color (video not color of the cable) carries the luma ?!

    Sync


    In this page, Bob list the types of sync signals twice. Once sync-on-luma is part of the list, and missing from the other list. And in the second list he talks about sync-on-green and sync-on-luma is missing. So, he forgot a sync signal in both lists ? Or can I use them interchangeably ?

    #24794
    BlueStinger
    Participant

    @pauln_nl
    https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/nintendo/gamecube
    They are all 3 listed as PAL. Oh you’re right on the sync-on-luma, I’ve only watch the thumbnail picture and thought it was written “sync-on-luma” ! My bad.

    #24812
    SegaFanboy
    Participant

    @RYIHN

    @BuckoA51

    Sorry, I expressed myself wrong. The answer was based on the unmodded consoles mentioned in the first post.

    #24814
    nmalinoski
    Participant

    @BlueStinger

    Correct me if I’m wrong but sync-on-green means sync-on-luma and both mean RGsB, YPbPr is sync-on-green and the green cable only carries Luma.

    Sync-on-green, sync-on-luma, YPbPr component are all different ideas:

    First, sync-on-green, also referred to as RGsB or SoG, specifically refers to RGB (hence the ‘RGB’ in ‘RGsB’) where composite sync is muxed into the green video data instead of being sent on a separate wire (hence the little ‘s’ in ‘RGsB’).

    Secondly, YPbPr is a different transmission method altogether. Despite also transmitting sync on a green wire, no green video data is transmitted, so sync-on-green labeling wouldn’t make sense. If anything, YPbPr would technically be a sync-on-luma application; however:

    Lastly, sync-on-luma, as understood by the community, refers to a non-standard wiring of RGBS cables for S-Video-capable consoles where luma is put on the sync line instead of composite video in order to significantly reduce the amount of interference caused to the R, G, and B video lines.

    Same goes for Scart. A scart sync-on-luma (= sync-on-green = RGsB) is a scart where :
    1 pin carries Red
    1 pin carries Green
    1 pin carries Blue
    1 pin carries the sync signal on a separate line that is Luma (which would be used for luma if the scart were to be wired for S-video)
    and the composite line would be unused

    CSYNC (sync-on-composite) on a scart would be :
    1 pin carries Red
    1 pin carries Green
    1 pin carries Blue
    1 pin carries the sync signal on a separate line that is Composite (which would be used for a composite signal if the scart were to be used as a non-RGB scart)

    Two things. First, “CSync” is short for “composite sync” and is most often used to refer to clean composite sync. Sync-on-composite instead refers to using composite video for sync.

    Secondly, regarding SCART, there is only one sync line going into the display, pin 20. (There is some bidirectional stuff for composite video, S-Video, and stereo analogue audio, but that’s beyond our scope here.) Pin 20 is intended to carry whichever video signal has composite sync:
    * For composite-only applications, this will simply be composite video;
    * For S-Video applications, this will be luma;
    * For RGBS applications, it’s typically composite video (sync-on-composite), but the cable could instead be wired to use luma (sync-on-luma; again, for interference reduction) or clean composite sync as provided by the console (very rare) or a sync stripper (common in boutique/custom cables); and
    * For YPbPr and RGsB applications, pin 20 will have no signal, as sync will instead be put on pin 11 (These formats are, for the most part, not supported over SCART).

    Y from YPbPr = green cable = only luma (no color) = sync, but that’s a “happy accident”.
    What we call it “green” in that case is supposed to refer to the color coding of the wires but not the video signal, or did I get this wrong ?

    You could very well argue that “sync-on-green” refers to the cable color or wire designation, but to me, it makes more sense that “sync-on-green” refers to sync being muxed with the green color data. The coloring of cables is trivial; if cables for luma were any other color than green, would we even be having this discussion?

    Because if I’m wrong (and I could be), this means that RGsB (sync-on-green) is not equal to sync-on-luma. In that case, are we supposed to use the term “sync-on-green” only when referring to YPbPr ? And sync-on-luma only when referring to scart or s-video ? Does that mean that the green color (video not color of the cable) carries the luma ?!

    To recap: No, sync-on-green is only RGsB; no, sync-on-luma refers to any RGBS application where sync is provided with luma (cable/connector style doesn’t matter); and, no, green and luma are two separate things.

    https://www.retrorgb.com/sync.html
    In this page, Bob list the types of sync signals twice. Once sync-on-luma is part of the list, and missing from the other list. And in the second list he talks about sync-on-green and sync-on-luma is missing. So, he forgot a sync signal in both lists ? Or can I use them interchangeably ?

    The lists on that page cover everything, but I would say it’s not the clearest of information.

    There are three things to be considered when it comes to sync:
    1. Which wire is transmitting the sync signals? (Composite video wire for composite video, Y for YC and YPbPr, G for RGsB, S for RGBS, and H and V for RGBHV.)
    2. How is the sync being provided? (Composite sync bundled with video data for composite video, YC, YPbPr, RGsB, and [usually] RGBS; clean composite sync on its own for RGBS; or clean, separate horizontal and vertical sync signals for RGBHV.)
    3. What is the voltage of the sync signals? (~5Vp-p for separate sync for RGBHV and clean composite sync when provided directly by a device like a SNES or Extron CrossPoint, which is fine for something like a VGA monitor, but can damage SCART and other consumer AV equipment; everything else is ~1Vp-p by virtue of sync being bundled with video data or being provided by a sync stripper that correctly attenuates the sync voltage for consumer equipment.)

    #24815
    BlueStinger
    Participant

    ooooh I think I got it right now…

    So sync-on-luma is basically identical to CSYNC (both sH and sV are shoved into a separate/unused cable). And for anyone who doesn’t plan on making its own cables and has devices that accept every type of sync, CSYNC is basically identical in terms of quality as Sync-on-luma.

    Which means that RGB cables don’t have luma running in a separate cable but along with red, green and blue I guess… (I always assumed luma was on a separate cable… if S-video and YPbPr can do it…)

    Which makes me think : Is there a cable that divides R,G,S, luma and sync ? From my point of view, the best of the best would be RGBHV because everything is separated, I always assumed RGBHV was actually RGBHVL (“L” would stand for luma). Is such cable exist ? Wouldn’t it be the ultimate cable (especially if fully shielded) ?

    Granted, I’m not the brightest, but this thing is not often explained very well. I’m going to re-watch MyLifeInGaming video about sync to see if I had a chance to understand. (if they did explain that right, I’m going to feel stupid)

    Anyway, thank you, I had to read your comment multiple times but I think I finally got it. I shouldn’t have just assume luma was handled like S-video every time it was possible.

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