GameJon
@vmagix
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LG often use IPS panels that are prone to image retention – it’s not “burn in” (as it’s not permanent) but there’s little you can do about it
Wow – sorry for the wall of text last night!
since my Genesis seems to be really bright and I need to turn the brightness down to 40, which is too dark on all other consoles. Isn’t it better to adjust R/Pr / G/Y / B/Pb offset and keep the TV at 45
Yeah that sounds like a good plan – don’t think it’ll cull information, and the Genesis doesn’t have a massive range of colours/tones anyway – you could always use 240p test suite (if you have an everdrive or cheap flashcart) to make sure everything looks OK with the new settings. Also easier to save those settings to a specific OSSC profile rather than having to change brightness on the TV every time! 🙂
Alright this is going to be long-winded because I’m drunk… Sorry.
From what I understand the OSSC outputs full range RGB, so HDMI black level being on “high” (or “normal” for Samsung TVs) “should” be correct… Otherwise you’re at risk of crushing (losing) detail at the extremes of the dark/light areas. What you’re seeing on that image is the Megadrive’s jailbars being exaggerated because the brightness is set too high.
I could be getting too technical here, but basically imagine that you have a source outputting the same test pattern that you see when you turn on the OSSC – a single image with a gradient going from white to black. A full range RGB signal will have 256 (0-255) steps between the whitest part of the gradient and the blackest part. A limited range RGB signal will have 220 (16-235) steps between the same white/black parts.
You have to tell the TV what sort of RGB range it should be expecting so it knows to map the correct values to the correct brightness range on the panel… If the TV HDMI black level is set to “low” then it expects a value of 16 and below to be completely black and outputs to the TV accordingly, the same goes for the high end and white. If it’s receiving a full range signal (while set to think it’s limited) then it’s culling information, and you’ll get an image that seems extremely vibrant/high-contrast but at the expense of any information that’s in those dark/light areas. This is why you’ve stopped seeing the lines in your second image, it’s culling info in the dark areas.
High (normal) black level = expects a full range (0-255) RGB signal
Low black level = expects a limited range (16-235) RGB signal.The reason this setting exists is because traditionally TVs (broadcast TV etc) have always worked within a limited range, whereas PC monitors have always been full range. The HDMI black level option is there to allow your TV to correctly map PC-esque full range sources (like the OSSC) that don’t have an option to change to limited range. Hell, even modern consoles output limited range by default.
Problem is, analogue sources (especially consoles) don’t exactly adhere to a 0-255 level in the same way that digital sources do. On most Samsung TVs “45” should be the neutral brightness setting, where black is actually black (and not a slight shade of grey) without losing information in the dark areas, but with some consoles connected to the OSSC you’ll probably need to set the brightness down a couple of notches to compensate – mine’s around 42/43. This used to be the same on TVs when it came to the contrast setting, set it too high and you start to lose detail in the white areas – however, nowadays most TVs can have the contrast set to full/100 and not cull any information.
It’s just a guess – but Samsung TVs usually save different profiles (per source) depending on what’s connected. If something’s in HDMI mode (and adheres to certain resolutions/refresh rates) then the TV sees it as a standard input, you can choose to turn on game mode, change colour temperature, adjust zoom/resize options etc… If it’s in DVI mode then it probably sees it as a PC input, which disables a LOT of processing options – including game mode. You’ll also probably find that HDMI black level being greyed out also means it’s on “normal” (high) because it’s expecting a PC input.
The TV will have different settings saved/applied when it switches between normal/game mode and PC mode (brightness/contrast/any dynamic crap that’s turned on) and it’s likely one of those settings that’s blowing out the contrast, not HDMI black level. I know this because the 61Hz I get out of the RGB modded PAL N64 (running NTSC software) forces the TV into PC mode, disabling colour options etc – and loading different settings to the ones that pop up when it’s in game mode.
Long story short – while many of your TVs options may vary, turn on game mode, put HDMI black level on “high”, brightness on “43”, contrast on “95”, sharpness on “0” (unless it’s in PC mode, at which point it’s probably between 25-50 – thanks Samsung), colour between 50-55 (and temperature on warm1), colour space on “native” and turn off any of the stuff like dynamic colour/contrast/clear motion/clean view/film mode and all that crap…
As for why it looks OK with the Framemeister? God knows – maybe it’s mapping colours in a different way?
Using something like a Toro just allows you to run 480p via SCART rather than VGA… It’s really that simple. There’s no real quality difference (as long as the quality of your VGA/SCART cables are comparable) and the main benefits come down to:
1.) If, like me, you’re using a GSCARTSW it allows you to add the Dreamcast into the mix and make use of the GSCART’s secondary output (for a capture card, second monitor or whatever)
2.) The SCART (AV1) port on the OSSC has low pass filters available that aren’t there on the VGA (AV3) input… In case you need to clean up the image and/or sync a little bit.
3.) There are a small number of games that don’t support VGA (480p) and a few that don’t (for whatever reason) support RGB. In this case you just have to flip a switch rather than unplug cables etc.
That’s basically it. You can get a basic Dreamcast VGA (+audio RCA) cable and plug it straight into the OSSC – it’ll work fine
Had a play around today. Of the 240p games I tried, they to fell into two categories:
320×240
352×240Sonic Jam (for example) ran at 320×240. Altering H.Samplerate (and sampling phase, but that’ll be personal depending on what LPFs you have in your chain etc) from the stock optimal 5x mode settings to 427 was all that was really needed. You might need to also alter H.backporch
NiGHTS seems to run at 352×240, which meant altering the H.Active to 352, then H.Samplerate to 455 (as Harrumph posted above). I used the clock text in the top left corner of the title screen to find the upper/lower boundaries of a stable sampling phase and then stuck it in the middle. Would have been better if I had a central point to work with but it’ll do for now.
Apparently it supported a load of resolutions – so I might need to make a few more profiles (https://segaretro.org/Sega_Saturn/Technical_specifications#Resolutions) but we’ll see once the 240p test suite hits.
Keep an eye on https://www.youtube.com/user/KarbuncleX/videos – I think he’s going through and doing optimal timings for all consoles, and the Saturn will be soon. This is FirebrandX btw, the guy who did the well-known profiles for the FM.
From my conversations with the guy on the OSSC/FM facebook group, what Harrumph is saying is correct – the Saturn has two output modes, which will both need different h samplerates. The 427 value on the optimal timings page works for some of my games (Sonic Jam, for example) whereas it’s totally out for something like NiGHTS. I also wish there was a 240p test suite 😛
Just in case anyone here has a GSCARTSW…
For a year I was unable to get a solid image at 5X on my Samsung UE32K5600.I recently discovered that turning the Sync Stripper OFF on the GSCARTSW (original version with second VGA-Style output) fixed this problem, and allowed upto 5x without issue.
Startech USB3HDCAP – older driver found on “TheTrillness” blog, based on the Micomsoft Xcapture1 drivers.
OSSC outputs split between TV and Capture card (for testing) using a Startech 4K60 HDMI splitter.
Works at 2-4x with these consoles (240p):
60hz modded PAL MegaDrive
JP SFAMICOM (non 1-chip)
60hz modded PAL SaturnWorks at 3x for RGB modded PAL N64 playing NTSC titles via everdrive (61Hz output – yes, 61hz)
Works at 2x for Wii 480p via YPbPr, Dreamcast 480p via SCART (Toro), PS2 RGsB 480p, and any consoles that output 480i (high Res modes on SNES/Saturn/MegaDrive – Sonic2 multiplayer for example).
Issues with SuperCIC 60hz modded PAL 1-CHIP SNES. Image seems to jitter/flicker occasionally. This does not present an issue on my TV in any mode (2-5x).
Using the original GSCARTSW I can run the OSSC’s HDMI, and RGB (via the GSCARTSW’S second, VGA-style output) to the card at the same time for comparisons. The OSSC does look noticeably better, but not so much that I would give up using 5x mode on the TV in order to preserve compatibility with the capture card. Additionally I play with scanlines, which I would have to give up due to them looking terrible onstream 😉
Right, been ages since I’ve updated this so I’ll re-do this compatibility report from mid last year:
Samsung UE32K5600 32inch LED 1080p TV – 10ms from 720p Leo Bodnar tool (game mode). All consoles routed through a GSCARTSW (including the Dreamcast via Toro box).
– Line 2x/3x mode works while allowing the TV to resize the image (Just Fit/overscan) and use Game Mode
– Line 4x works, and looks crisp – unfortunately it sees it as a PC input, disabling game mode (although it’ll still be a low-latency display mode) as well as resizing options and some other useful stuff (display dimming, some picture options like “colour” etc).
– Line 5x WORKS! Initially this did NOT work, and considering I’ve had the OSSC for over a year I’ve only just realised that the sync stripper on the GSCARTSW was the culprit. Since turning the GSCART’s sync stripper off (to get 480p working for the Dreamcast via the Toro/SCART) line 5x has worked perfectly. Game mode and all picture settings are accessible, with slight cropping of the image.– PAL Megadrive (model1) 60Hz modded – YES 2-5x. Using a Packapunch CSYNC cable with the 3.5mm audio breakout.
– PAL SNES (1chip) SuperCIC 60Hz modded – YES 2-5x. Using Packapunch “CSYNC” (inbuilt stripper) cable.
– PAL Saturn (model2) 60Hz modded – YES 2-5x. Flawless @ 240p. RGC Sync on Luma cable.
– Dreamcast @480P via SCART (Toro) – Works @ 2X, seems to crush some of the brightest shades of white (using 240p test suite) but does look good and work well.
– PAL PS2 via RGB SCART – YES 2x. Flawless bob deinterlace/image
– PAL PS2 via RGsB SCART (Sync on Green) – YES 2X. 480p seems to work perfectly
– PAL RGB N64 (French NUS-001) – Yes 2-4x. The N64 Everdrive menu uses PAL timings (50Hz and 575i?) which only works at upto 2x mode. NTSC roms play fine on a PAL system using the Everdrive, but at 61Hz which disables game mode on the TV @ 3x. using SNES Packapunch “CSYNC” (inbuilt stripper) cable. I have no doubt that a true NTSC N64 would work fine at 5x.
– Wii via RGB SCART – YES 2x. Perfect bob deinterlace at 50/60Hz, switches perfectly to 240p when NES/SNES emulators are loaded. Also tried YPbPr over a basic SCART converter and this worked, but the image was degraded somewhat.For all my consoles (apart from 60hz/480i Wii output) I needed to adjust the V/H backporch setting slightly to centre the image. This was also the case for the Dreamcast at linedoubled DTV 480p.
I would highly recommend this TV (or latest model) for those who want a smaller gaming TV. Additionally, for those looking for a compatible capture card my Startech USB3HDCAP (basically the Micomsoft XCAPTURE1) works with most consoles upto 4X mode. The N64 only works at 3X mode.
@andychristian – My Samsung TV recognises anything that’s a strange resolution (like the DC in line doubled mode) or refresh rate (like the 61Hz of the RGB Modded N64 playing NTSC games) as a PC input. So yeah, it disables game mode, but it also disables all other processing (can’t even change the colour slider) so input lag will probably be lower than standard game mode.
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC
Horizontal/Vertical backporch length
Sets output backporch lengths, which by default are set to match expected input backporch lengths. Effectively adjusts image position.Anyone tried LG’s SJ850V (SJ8500 in the US)? There’s a 55inch and 65inch version, it’s relatively inexpensive and has 15ms input lag in game (or PC) mode…
Upgrade went fine. Also stopped the issue of not being able to switch from 16:9 to 4:3 on the TV when going from a 240p source to a 480p source (used to have to reboot the TV)
line 3x or 4x 480i modes don’t work on the TV though… Shame. Still can’t get 5x stable for 240p either (4x looks great, but disables any of the zooming/resize options on the TV) so I’m sticking with 3x.
Nice update!
Thanks Marqs – will give it a shot. Probably a stupid question but it doesn’t save profiles/settings between firmware updates, right?
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